AACHM Oral History: Carol Allen

Mon, 07/31/2023 - 11:07am

When: July 27, 2023

Carol Allen was born in Alton, Illinois in 1945. Her parents Janie and Thomas Ross moved to Ann Arbor in 1951 and purchased a home on Fifth Avenue. Her father was a cook and her mother was a nurse’s aid and custodian. Carol recalls raising her son Carl Jr. with her husband while living on the second floor of her family’s home. She got her associate’s degree in practical nursing and worked in that field for most of her career. In January 2023 she and her husband Carl celebrated their 60th wedding anniversary. They have two sons and several grandchildren.

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Transcript

• [00:00:18] JOYCE HUNTER: [MUSIC] Carol, good to see you this afternoon and thank you for agreeing to do the interview today. I congratulate you for assisting with the interview of your mom who turned 102 this weekend. Which day was it?
• [00:00:34] CAROL ALLEN: Sunday.
• [00:00:35] JOYCE HUNTER: Sunday. You mentioned to me about lots of pictures. After the interview we'll ask you about that.
• [00:00:42] CAROL ALLEN: Okay.
• [00:00:43] JOYCE HUNTER: We're going to get started. Part 1 is demographics and family history. I'm first going to ask you some simple demographic questions. Questions may jog your memory, but please keep your answers brief and to the point for now. We can go into more detail later in the interview.
• [00:01:04] CAROL ALLEN: Okay.
• [00:01:05] JOYCE HUNTER: Please say and spell your name.
• [00:01:08] CAROL ALLEN: Carol Allen, C-A-R-O-L A-L-L-E-N.
• [00:01:15] JOYCE HUNTER: What is your date of birth including the year?
• [00:01:21] CAROL ALLEN: October, 15th, 1945.
• [00:01:25] JOYCE HUNTER: How would you describe your ethnic background?
• [00:01:28] CAROL ALLEN: African American.
• [00:01:31] JOYCE HUNTER: What is your religion, if any?
• [00:01:34] CAROL ALLEN: Methodist.
• [00:01:37] JOYCE HUNTER: What is the highest level of formal education you have completed?
• [00:01:42] CAROL ALLEN: I don't know what they consider Albion, I guess it's like two years of college. Associate's degree in Nursing.
• [00:01:50] JOYCE HUNTER: Okay. Did you attend any additional school or formal career training beyond that?
• [00:01:58] CAROL ALLEN: No.
• [00:02:00] JOYCE HUNTER: What is your marital status?
• [00:02:03] CAROL ALLEN: I've been married for 60 years.
• [00:02:05] JOYCE HUNTER: Oh, congratulations.
• [00:02:09] CAROL ALLEN: Last January.
• [00:02:09] JOYCE HUNTER: Well that's wonderful. How many children do you have?
• [00:02:14] CAROL ALLEN: Two sons.
• [00:02:16] JOYCE HUNTER: How many siblings do you have?
• [00:02:20] CAROL ALLEN: I had three. I'm the only one left.
• [00:02:25] JOYCE HUNTER: That's like me, it just happened in May. What was your primary occupation?
• [00:02:33] CAROL ALLEN: Practical nurse who worked everywhere.
• [00:02:37] JOYCE HUNTER: If retired, what age did you?
• [00:02:41] CAROL ALLEN: I had to retire at 60 due to health problems.
• [00:02:46] JOYCE HUNTER: We're going to go on now to Part 2, memories of childhood and youth. This part of the interview is about your childhood and youth. Once again, even if these questions jog memories about other times in your life, please only respond with memories for this part of your life. What was your family like when you [INAUDIBLE].
• [00:03:08] CAROL ALLEN: What was my--repeat that again?
• [00:03:10] JOYCE HUNTER: What was your family like when you were a child?
• [00:03:15] CAROL ALLEN: We were a busy family. We lived about four blocks down the street, on Fifth Avenue and Kingsley. Working.
• [00:03:26] JOYCE HUNTER: Go ahead.
• [00:03:28] CAROL ALLEN: We were just a working family.
• [00:03:33] JOYCE HUNTER: What sort of work did your parents do?
• [00:03:37] CAROL ALLEN: What sort of work did my parents do? Her last job was a custodian for the public schools. She also worked as a nurse's aid at St. Joe, I think was the first job she had. My dad worked as a cook at the hotel behind the tower on the campus. Then he worked for the city of Ann Arbor for quite a few years.
• [00:04:05] JOYCE HUNTER: What schools did your mother, where did she work? Which buildings did she work in?
• [00:04:11] CAROL ALLEN: She worked at Forsythe, she worked at Angell. Her last job that I remember was Mack and I'm sure I forgot some of them.
• [00:04:23] JOYCE HUNTER: As a child, some of your earliest memories?
• [00:04:28] CAROL ALLEN: Some of my earliest memories was when we first came here we live with my great uncle over the Broadway bridge, the three of us, three Musketeers. What else? My other memories living on Fifth Ave on the house with the big porch. That was good memories, that was our neighborhood.
• [00:04:56] JOYCE HUNTER: Talk to me a little bit about that neighborhood. We've interviewed other people that talked about living, Fifth Ave, Beakes, Fourth Ave, all in that area, so talk to me a little bit about that area.
• [00:05:10] CAROL ALLEN: Well, that was pretty much our circle. We had Diroff's store over there, which you could see from my porch. Most of the ethnic food that Black people ate came from that store. They would come from all over to get the kind of food they want, and he catered to them. Our church was on Fourth Ave, African Methodist Episcopal Church. Bethel was on Fourth Ave, so everything we needed was there. The Baptist Church was on Fourth Ave and Beakes. We had the farmer's market there, so pretty much everything you needed was there. It was a nice neighborhood. I thought all neighborhoods were like that.
• [00:06:06] JOYCE HUNTER: In terms of Bethel, that was within walking distance, is that right?
• [00:06:11] CAROL ALLEN: What is that?
• [00:06:12] JOYCE HUNTER: Bethel was in walking distance?
• [00:06:14] CAROL ALLEN: Oh, yeah. It was on Fourth Ave. I lived on Fifth Ave, and Kingsley and it was on Fourth Ave, just five houses from Beakes Street, just around the corner.
• [00:06:30] JOYCE HUNTER: What was a Sunday like at Bethel?
• [00:06:34] CAROL ALLEN: Bethel was beautiful, I went to Sunday school there. The first verse I ever learned was there. I'm trying to think of my Sunday school teacher, but anyway, I'll tell you about that later. Downstairs was Sunday school for the kids, upstairs were the adults.
• [00:06:55] JOYCE HUNTER: Okay. Did you sing in the choir or anything at Bethel AME?
• [00:07:02] CAROL ALLEN: I didn't start singing in the choir till I was my 30s or 40s.
• [00:07:10] JOYCE HUNTER: Okay.
• [00:07:11] CAROL ALLEN: On the new church, on John A. Woods Drive.
• [00:07:17] JOYCE HUNTER: Now, Bethel on Fourth Ave, that's a historic site now. The front of it looks just like old Bethel, but inside are condominiums. Have you've been in?
• [00:07:29] CAROL ALLEN: No, but I know. I met the people that bought that house, the church, and there's some other churches like that too. The outside is historic, but the inside is a condo.
• [00:07:50] JOYCE HUNTER: Going back to other questions about your family, is there any special days, events, or family traditions you remember from your childhood?
• [00:08:02] CAROL ALLEN: Events I remember mostly are holidays. On Sundays, my mother and I started doing this myself. Now I can't believe I'm doing it. My mother used to cook for everybody on Sunday now I'm doing it [LAUGHTER] and the holidays. Everybody would be there for the holidays.
• [00:08:25] JOYCE HUNTER: Which holidays?
• [00:08:27] CAROL ALLEN: All of them. Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Fourth of July. Well, all the big holidays we spend here.
• [00:08:40] JOYCE HUNTER: Would that include just family, extended family as well?
• [00:08:44] CAROL ALLEN: Oh, I'm sure it was more than just that. We had some cousins on my dad's side that moved here and we also had cousins on my mother's side that moved here, so. The porch on Fifth Avenue, people would come, neighbors would even come sit there. Family and friends, people that used to live in our house would come there.
• [00:09:13] JOYCE HUNTER: So that house is still there on Fifth Ave?
• [00:09:16] CAROL ALLEN: Still there.
• [00:09:17] JOYCE HUNTER: Do you know who owns it now?
• [00:09:20] CAROL ALLEN: They have turned it into I don't know if it's two family or three family. They've changed it. It's not a single-family home anymore, but the outside is the same.
• [00:09:33] JOYCE HUNTER: Do you have any pictures of that home?
• [00:09:36] CAROL ALLEN: Yes.
• [00:09:38] JOYCE HUNTER: That'd be wonderful in our digital collection.
• [00:09:42] CAROL ALLEN: I'll see if I can find it. I have a picture of me sitting on the porch after working all day. [LAUGHTER] I did give her a picture of my son coming up the steps. The steps with the literal. When you come up the front of the steps--he was coming up the steps and you can see him. I will find them.
• [00:10:08] JOYCE HUNTER: You mentioned that your mom needs to do all the cooking on Sundays and now you're doing it. Tell me a little bit about the menu and who comes to eat.
• [00:10:19] CAROL ALLEN: Well, I have two sons, a daughter-in-law, and now all my grandkids are grown now, the youngest ones, 23. She's in Chicago at Northwestern. She wants to be a doctor. My kids and my grandkids come. The only one still here in Michigan is my grandson, the rest of my girls--one is in Florida, two are in California, and the other one is in Illinois. My son and his grandson come, my youngest son he brings his kids, and my son and my daughter-in-law and my great-granddaughter, Carly, she comes, she's three, she rules the roost.
• [00:11:08] JOYCE HUNTER: [LAUGHTER] I'm sure she does. So what's on the menu you're using when they come?
• [00:11:15] CAROL ALLEN: Well, whatever I decide to make, I like cooking. I can't believe it. I couldn't boil water when I get married. Whatever I decide to make. I like baking. I like to try new menus. You wouldn't believe what their favorite dish they like. Tuna casserole. I used to take that to all my kids' sports banquets. That's one of their favorites. They killed that.
• [00:11:47] JOYCE HUNTER: Going back to your schooling, did you play any sports or join any other activities outside of school?
• [00:11:59] CAROL ALLEN: I played at school. We used to play at Jones School. When I went to Jones School, I could walk to Jones School would take me about five minutes. A game called workup baseball. I was the tomboy and we'd play that, I liked to ride my bike. I didn't join any subgroups, but I was a girl scout. The girl scout leader lived across the street from me, Mrs. Carrington. So those were my outside activity and I walked everywhere. I can tell you, I've walked all over and over. That was one that.
• [00:12:39] JOYCE HUNTER: It sounds like there was a very special and close neighborhood.
• [00:12:44] CAROL ALLEN: It was, everybody knew everybody. You couldn't go anywhere, do anything without-- [LAUGHTER]. They say the internet is fast but nothing was faster than the telephone call [LAUGHTER]. Word of mouth is still fast.
• [00:13:03] JOYCE HUNTER: What about your school experience is different from school as you know it today?
• [00:13:09] CAROL ALLEN: What's different? The thing that I think is different is when I was growing up it was more verbal and more one-on-one communication. Now, a lot of stuff is machines. The other thing I think is different. I don't know, maybe these young kids do the gathering place. We had a community center right there on the corner of Fourth Ave, the Dunbar. We'd meet there with activities.
• [00:13:48] JOYCE HUNTER: Tell me more about the Dunbar Center.
• [00:13:51] CAROL ALLEN: Dunbar Center is right there on the corner of Fourth Ave and Kingsley. It's still there. I don't know what they've done with it now. It's changed many times. The last time I knew about it was Legal Aid. I don't know what it is now, but the building hasn't changed. That's one thing I do like about Ann Arbor, they do not change. Most American cities do, but that building is still there. Mr. Ellis was in charge of that building.
• [00:14:20] JOYCE HUNTER: Tell me about the activities that took place at the Dunbar Center.
• [00:14:24] CAROL ALLEN: They would have games. They would have, his wife was--I think Mrs. Ellis was a social worker or psychologist or something. She taught me about becoming a young lady, we would have dances there, you could play games. It was really nice. You could walk to it and kids came from everywhere.
• [00:14:55] JOYCE HUNTER: Other people we've interviewed, talked about the Dunbar Center, do you have any pictures of yourself at the Dunbar?
• [00:15:03] CAROL ALLEN: The one picture I did have of myself, our choir had and he would not give it to me [LAUGHTER]. He was a teenager. It's the only one I've ever seen personally.
• [00:15:21] JOYCE HUNTER: Going back to your family now. Did your family have any special sayings or expressions during your school years during this time?
• [00:15:30] CAROL ALLEN: Not that I can think of. Maybe later on in the interview, something will come to me, the only thing I can remember my mother saying and maybe it's because I'm older is, "Keep living." She would say that. Very strong. My dad was a quiet man.
• [00:15:52] JOYCE HUNTER: So she would just say just keep on living.
• [00:15:54] CAROL ALLEN: Yes. Now that she's gotten older, and people tend to think when you're older, you're not aware. A lot of it's just you don't have to worry about stuff. She would say that to me. I'm thinking of what's going on with her and she said, "Just keep living." That's what that's related to.
• [00:16:19] JOYCE HUNTER: Especially when interviewing her, a lot of things, but I like the way you interacted with your mother, you could just see the love that she was able to show.
• [00:16:27] CAROL ALLEN: She taught me so much and I didn't even realize I was learning. She taught me how to survive and so much, you really don't realize it until a certain point and then you realize all that. The time that she spent on somebody if you know who you are and you have love, you can get the rest and that's what my mom taught me.
• [00:16:57] JOYCE HUNTER: That's wonderful. Were there changes in your family life during your school years?
• [00:17:06] CAROL ALLEN: Like what.
• [00:17:10] JOYCE HUNTER: Within your family, change in terms of the community, history, historical?
• [00:17:17] CAROL ALLEN: Changes in family life? Not so much when I grew up, no. We had two junior highs, we had one high school. We'd bus in. Most of the things in Ann Arbor you walked. I used to walk Kingsley and Fifth Ave all the way to Pioneer, not even think anything of it. Things started changing, I guess in the mid-60s, things changed and I was pretty much grown then.
• [00:17:56] JOYCE HUNTER: I'm trying to visualize that walk from Kingsley.
• [00:18:01] CAROL ALLEN: To Pioneer?
• [00:18:02] JOYCE HUNTER: Pioneer, right?
• [00:18:03] CAROL ALLEN: Straight up Main Street, once you get on Main Street, you'd just walk all the way to Pioneer.
• [00:18:11] JOYCE HUNTER: You just kept going?
• [00:18:13] CAROL ALLEN: Yeah, they didn't have buses. I don't know if they had public buses and I don't remember. I remember it was a nice walk because they used to have Capital Bakery up there just past Liberty. And then if it got really cold you'd stop in the store for a minute and just keep going.
• [00:18:41] JOYCE HUNTER: You walked but what about other students, Caucasians? Did they walk or were they bussed?
• [00:18:47] CAROL ALLEN: I don't know. Occasionally, my dad would take us to school. My dad worked so much. Occasionally he would. But we didn't think anything of it because so many kids did. I don't know if the white kids walked or not. Probably a lot of them lived near the school. We didn't. That was the only high school there was besides University High. There was a University High School. But you had to, I think University was similar to like what Jones School is now. It was like certain kids were nominated or put in to go to that high school. The building is still there, it's down from the--what do they call it? That building is right down the street from where his residence is.
• [00:19:51] JOYCE HUNTER: Okay. When thinking back on your school years, both social or historical events were taking place at that time?
• [00:20:04] CAROL ALLEN: I've got to tell you this and I was hoping Joetta would be here. The first Black teacher I ever saw and ever met when I was in the third or fourth grade was Mr. Mial. That was the biggest thing I think that happened to me when I was in school. I'd never seen a Black teacher before ever till met Mr. Mial, I remember that like it was yesterday.
• [00:20:28] JOYCE HUNTER: Talk more, is there more you can say about that?
• [00:20:33] CAROL ALLEN: No, he was just such a, I don't know more I can say about it. Can you see the smile on my face? [LAUGHTER] It was just fascinating because, I guess that was the beauty of Ann Arbor, and maybe it's still here, that there's always been different people in Ann Arbor always as long as I can remember different countries, different races. But that was a plus.
• [00:21:05] JOYCE HUNTER: Different people have mentioned Mr. Harry Mial being their first--their first teacher that first administrator. So other people we've interviewed have also brought up his name, which is wonderful.
• [00:21:20] CAROL ALLEN: He had just got out of school and he was at Jones School. I was very impressed. That's encouraging.
• [00:21:32] JOYCE HUNTER: See someone who looks like you?
• [00:21:34] CAROL ALLEN: Yes, definitely. But Mrs. Ellis, she looked like me. Mr. Ellis. I'm trying to think. There's some other people, it won't come to me. It will before we leave. [OVERLAPPING] There were a lot of, we had Mr. Mullis, but Mr. Mial was the first.
• [00:22:07] JOYCE HUNTER: Okay. Great. I'm going to talk a little bit about some of the next questions you've already basically answered when we talked about at a high school, elementary school. But I do want to talk a little bit more about Jones School, share a little bit more about attending Jones School.
• [00:22:24] CAROL ALLEN: Well they say Jones School was mostly Blacks, but there were all kinds of people from the Jones School. I still can remember my third grade teacher, this is so funny it but I don't remember fourth or fifth grade. But Mrs. Johnson was my third grade teacher. I'll never forget. She was excellent. She really was. I can remember like it was yesterday.
• [00:22:55] JOYCE HUNTER: It's really great when you can remember a teacher because that teaching must have been very special to you.
• [00:23:01] CAROL ALLEN: Yes, she cared about her students. She really was a good teacher.
• [00:23:07] JOYCE HUNTER: Were there restaurants or eating places for Blacks where you lived?
• [00:23:14] CAROL ALLEN: Eating place? [LAUGHTER] I'm trying to remember if there was. My dad cooked for a living. Do you know where the tower is on the campus?
• [00:23:25] JOYCE HUNTER: Eastern?
• [00:23:26] CAROL ALLEN: No, Michigan Campus.
• [00:23:28] JOYCE HUNTER: Tower.
• [00:23:29] CAROL ALLEN: Hill Auditorium.
• [00:23:30] JOYCE HUNTER: Oh yes.
• [00:23:32] CAROL ALLEN: There's a tower right there. He cooked at a hotel that's still there. We didn't eat out a lot because my dad could cook anything. When I was 16 years at a restaurant on street, people would come from everywhere there. He could cut his own meat and he cook anything. He taught me how to cook. When I would go to the hotel, I would go see him, he had a smorgasbord that's almost as long as this table with any food you wanted. Really, we're kind of picky.
• [00:24:20] JOYCE HUNTER: That sounds really appetizing.
• [00:24:23] CAROL ALLEN: You have to see it as beautiful. I don't think they do stuff like, well, maybe in some places, but they don't do that so much anymore. I mean, it was like everything you could think off.
• [00:24:38] JOYCE HUNTER: Talk to me about his restaurant, the name and tell me a bit more about his restaurant.
• [00:24:43] CAROL ALLEN: Well, my sister named at the Waldorf Astoria, they have that one in New York. They named it Waldorf. The dad cooked there. Clifford, that work with my dad came with him to the restaurant, and I'm thinking another guy can't remember his name. There's specialty that I liked was his chop suey, he made it from scratch. I thought chop suey was Chinese dish, it's not it's American, but just about anything you want to eat he could make, all you have to do is ask. But those are the things that stand out the most in my mind. He still taught me how to set a table because I would go in there and help him. I was about 15 or 16 hours a day, this girl anyway, but I didn't realize it. He taught me how to set the table and put the napkins and the water would which the inner on and everything, so that was special.
• [00:25:52] JOYCE HUNTER: How long did you spent?
• [00:25:55] CAROL ALLEN: About a year. He worked for about a year, then there was a fire, and then he left and went to work for the City of Ann Arbor.
• [00:26:09] JOYCE HUNTER: What was your special dish that he prepared that you like the most.
• [00:26:18] CAROL ALLEN: The chop suey, it was so good. If I can get that recipe I'll be blown away but I haven't dead.
• [00:26:28] JOYCE HUNTER: Have you tried?
• [00:26:31] CAROL ALLEN: No, he cut his own meat and stuff. I don't know if I can. If I get a decent recipe, maybe it can do it. But that's American dishes, not an Asian dish. I don't know anybody that makes it. People don't take that much time now to, I like to cook from scratch. Most people don't. I just got a beautiful new chicken pot pie dish to the knock you out, and it's simple.
• [00:27:06] JOYCE HUNTER: You'll have to give it to me. I like simple. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:27:10] CAROL ALLEN: I'll give it to you. It is very good.
• [00:27:13] JOYCE HUNTER: Okay. Let's talk about accommodations. Some Blacks came to town with hotels and places for them to stay? Where did visitors stay?
• [00:27:25] CAROL ALLEN: That's a good question because I don't know. I think most people they came or stay with family or relatives or. My parents had the house, it was three stories. We had the bottom floor, the second floor they rented out, and the third floor they rented out. People stayed with families. When we first came here, I stayed with my great uncle, Mr. Little, and we stayed there. Then after we left there, we stayed at, that was on the north side of town by Northside School. Then we stayed at Summit and Daniels. Mrs. Jones rented the upstairs of her house to us. I think most people that came and stayed with family. They stay with families because there was a lot of housing they have now they didn't have then. And I can't think of any hotels, but this is really funny you asked. My husband got the Green Book. There was a hotel, you know where the rock is on Washtenaw?
• [00:28:37] JOYCE HUNTER: Yes.
• [00:28:39] CAROL ALLEN: Well, there was a place for Black people to stay there, he looked it up in the Green Book and I can't remember the name of it. You can find just about anything now. I know anything about that.
• [00:28:53] JOYCE HUNTER: Talk to me about the Green Book.
• [00:28:56] CAROL ALLEN: The Green Book, so I didn't know anything about the Green Book. We had reunions and we would go to the South and we'd go see our relatives. We'd go to southern Illinois, Tennessee. My dad always traveled at night. Well, that generation traveled at night because at night nobody could tell what you were. I used to wonder why my daddy liked to drive at night and that's why. My great uncle drove at night. My uncle--my aunt's husband, not great uncle--he would drive at night and the Green Book tells you about all the different places you can stay. It talks about Idlewild, the different resorts Black people stayed. It's fascinating, and I didn't know anything about that because life was a little different. Things were starting to change for Black people when I was an in-between age.
• [00:30:07] JOYCE HUNTER: The Green Book, I think there was a movie called The Green Book.
• [00:30:13] CAROL ALLEN: Yes, it was.
• [00:30:15] JOYCE HUNTER: That's what it was based on then.
• [00:30:17] CAROL ALLEN: Yes. It's a true story. It's fascinating really. Excuse me. I have allergies.
• [00:30:28] JOYCE HUNTER: It's okay. I watched them all. Then I have to now go back and watch it again, it's been [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:30:32] CAROL ALLEN: It's fascinating. This book they had resorts all over that I never even heard of it. My husband ordered, you can order a book online, it tells you about everything.
• [00:30:45] JOYCE HUNTER: It's still something that you can buy just to have it as a copy.
• [00:30:50] CAROL ALLEN: Yes.
• [00:30:52] JOYCE HUNTER: That would be great just to have a copy in your library. [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:30:56] CAROL ALLEN: He ordered it online. It was fascinating.
• [00:31:00] JOYCE HUNTER: Now, let me go back to your house for a second. You said when you were growing up your house had three floors and your family rented out the second and third floor, how did that work in terms of entrance, was there a back entrance?
• [00:31:16] CAROL ALLEN: That house has a porch that's L-shaped. When you come up the steps, if you go to the right, there's an entrance there, and then if you keep going the other end of the porch, there was an entrance there. It had a doorbell that was metal and when you ring it, it would crank. If people stayed upstairs, they didn't have to come to our house. They'd just go to that far door on the left. It goes straight up.
• [00:31:50] JOYCE HUNTER: Okay. Three floors. That's really interesting. That was a source of income for your family as well.
• [00:31:59] CAROL ALLEN: Yes.
• [00:32:00] JOYCE HUNTER: Now we're going to move on now to adulthood, marriage, and family life. After you finished high school, where did you live?
• [00:32:13] CAROL ALLEN: I got married in high school. I was 17. When I finished high school, we lived with my parents until I moved to University Townhouses. We moved there.
• [00:32:33] JOYCE HUNTER: You got married while you were in high school. Say more about that.
• [00:32:38] CAROL ALLEN: I think I was the first mom and wife that graduated from high school. He was like a year or two old when I went to high school. I graduated from Pioneer. I was married, this is the picture of my husband and I got that.
• [00:33:03] JOYCE HUNTER: Love to see that. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:33:09] CAROL ALLEN: Good news.
• [00:33:09] JOYCE HUNTER: Great. Tell me about your marriage and family life.
• [00:33:16] CAROL ALLEN: I was married at the old Bethel in 1963, January. Then we moved in with my parents. Our room was upstairs on that floor that I was telling you about on Fifth Avenue, my husband and I and my son. This room was so big, we had our little bed and we had our things there. My son, they have an alcove. I guess they didn't have closets in older houses, so it's like a little alcove, and that was his little room when we first got married. Then about a few years later, we had the whole upstairs, the kitchen, living room, the front room, like a dining room, living room after that.
• [00:34:19] JOYCE HUNTER: You dated your husband while you're in high school?
• [00:34:22] CAROL ALLEN: Yes, I was just a little girl. I think I was like, how old was I? Sixteen, 17? Yes. He was in school with my sister. My husband is three years older than me. I met him when I was 14, and he went away to college. When he came back, I was 16 and like that. That's when we met. That was it.
• [00:34:51] JOYCE HUNTER: You caught his eye or he caught your eye?
• [00:34:56] CAROL ALLEN: This is what he told me. The same was, "Do not talk to Thomas Ross's daughter because Virginia or her father will be on you." Well, I never knew that. He said he wanted me and he was going to make sure that he got me. I never knew that. That's the story. What else?
• [00:35:26] JOYCE HUNTER: He's had you for 62 years?
• [00:35:29] CAROL ALLEN: Yes. We've been together a long time. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:35:33] JOYCE HUNTER: I love it.
• [00:35:37] CAROL ALLEN: When you say that, my God. Sixty years of marriage, that's long enough. Beautiful. It's so funny now that we're older it's better than it's ever been. I can't even explain it to you.
• [00:35:54] JOYCE HUNTER: That's good. [OVERLAPPING]. So special. Let's talk about the children and etc. What were things like with your children and you and your husband when they were little?
• [00:36:13] CAROL ALLEN: They were good. Mom thinks that's her son. I says, "Mom, no, that's not your son." [LAUGHTER] That was her first grandchild, and he was a boy. I don't know how this works, but I think a lot of women that grew up in the South cling to boys because so much happens to Black males. That was her first grandson. She loved him to death, and my husband's mother loved him to death, he's the first grandchild. It was good. He had a dog, German Shepherd. Before they put all the street lights on Fifth Avenue when he was a little boy, the dog used to go up there and he used to follow him. Good memories. We stay there till he was five. Then I had my youngest son. They're five-and-a-half years apart almost. After he was born, we moved. We got a townhouse in University Townhouses. That was pretty good. Then my husband's mother died, my brother-in-law was 15. I was 29, he came to live with us. So I had a house full of men. I never seen so many athletic shoes in my life, they're all runners and wrestlers, and baseball players and basketball players. I'm the only woman in the house. We had a good life.
• [00:38:12] JOYCE HUNTER: You had a point.
• [00:38:15] CAROL ALLEN: Well, I don't know about that. [LAUGHTER] I think we were like Hazel, you ever see?
• [00:38:25] JOYCE HUNTER: Yes.
• [00:38:25] CAROL ALLEN: I thought I was born like Hazel, but I guess I was the queen, my goodness. Being a queen isn't all it was made out to be, baby.
• [00:38:38] JOYCE HUNTER: What was your oldest son's name?
• [00:38:41] CAROL ALLEN: Carl Lester Allen, Jr.
• [00:38:47] JOYCE HUNTER: Named after his dad?
• [00:38:48] CAROL ALLEN: After his dad.
• [00:38:52] JOYCE HUNTER: What was your second son's name?
• [00:38:57] CAROL ALLEN: Todd Eugene Allen.
• [00:39:01] JOYCE HUNTER: Talk to me a little bit about your spouse.
• [00:39:05] CAROL ALLEN: My husband, he's in the archives. They have a book with him and everything. He was number 2 in the country or something for running or the state, I don't know. I don't know all this stuff. My son was too. They are in the Detroit Free Press both of them. My husband ran till he was 52. He was second in the Detroit Marathon, the one that runs from Windsor to Detroit at 52. Finally, he stopped running at 53. He used to run all over Ann Arbor. They both did, they all did. My brother-in-law, football. He got a scholarship to Eastern. My son was in running, he got a scholarship at Michigan. My youngest son went to Michigan. All of them went to Michigan, all my grandkids went there except for my grandson. All three granddaughters went to Michigan and graduated.
• [00:40:14] JOYCE HUNTER: You're all Michigan fans. You're all Michigan fans, then.
• [00:40:20] CAROL ALLEN: Definitely. But God has been good to me. Even though I was the queen. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:40:29] JOYCE HUNTER: I love it. Think more about your husband so you say he was a runner and what else?
• [00:40:38] CAROL ALLEN: He's very [INAUDIBLE], even now. My husband hasn't gained hardly any weight from the six years we've been married. He's constantly moving, you can't complain.
• [00:40:56] JOYCE HUNTER: He's physically fit then.
• [00:40:59] CAROL ALLEN: Fit. He does yoga every day. I wish I would have done it. I can't get down like that now. [LAUGHTER] My body will not go like that right now I need to get it. He can do all those moves and he's got a routine. He's been blessed, but he's never been sick. I almost died though. I was in a coma for a whole week. I'm glad I'm here.
• [00:41:28] JOYCE HUNTER: I am too, what a blessing. Now what are your son's doing now? What careers?
• [00:41:39] CAROL ALLEN: Now don't ask me what is title is. He sets about these computer systems for U of M has his degree in computer science, I don't know what his title is.
• [00:41:49] JOYCE HUNTER: Okay.
• [00:41:51] CAROL ALLEN: His wife is a psychologist. He met her at Michigan. She used to be at Lincoln school. She just retired, but I think she's still working part-time.
• [00:42:06] JOYCE HUNTER: What about your youngest son?
• [00:42:09] CAROL ALLEN: My youngest son went to Michigan for two years. Then he worked for the water company. Now he's working at Glacier Hills. He has his associate's degree in heating and cooling. My brother-in-law has his doctorate degree in psychology. What did I say? He has this doctorate's degree, and I can't remember what his title is. He's written books and everything. More than one. He used to be one of Dr. Moody's prodigies. He's like one of his sons. He's been blessed.
• [00:42:56] JOYCE HUNTER: He's the one that came to live with you when he was 15?
• [00:42:59] CAROL ALLEN: Yes.
• [00:43:04] JOYCE HUNTER: All your children have done well?
• [00:43:06] CAROL ALLEN: Yes.
• [00:43:07] JOYCE HUNTER: Congrats to them and to you.
• [00:43:09] CAROL ALLEN: I had one to worry about but she did have four of us and have one grand. All my kids are with grands and great-grands, all of them. I have one that hasn't, but I give her to God.
• [00:43:25] JOYCE HUNTER: I was going to say keep praying for her about it.
• [00:43:30] CAROL ALLEN: All of them. My oldest grandson, I can't remember these titles.
• [00:43:39] JOYCE HUNTER: It's okay. [LAUGHTER].
• [00:43:41] CAROL ALLEN: He works for U of M in logistics. He runs logistics and he's getting his degree in that. They get so much and I can't keep all of that. A grandson has his degree from Western in business. Some kind of trucking business, I don't know.
• [00:44:05] JOYCE HUNTER: It sounds like a wonderful, wonderful family.
• [00:44:12] CAROL ALLEN: Well, you know life. [LAUGHTER].
• [00:44:24] JOYCE HUNTER: Okay, queen. [LAUGHTER] We're going to go to part four, which is work and retirement. You already mentioned that you were in the nursing field. Is that what you shared?
• [00:44:34] CAROL ALLEN: Yes.
• [00:44:38] JOYCE HUNTER: How did you first get started with this field?
• [00:44:44] CAROL ALLEN: First job I had was as a dietary aid at U of M. Then I went back to school and I worked as an aid. After I finished high school, I wanted to work full time. I started working as a nurse's aid at the old St. Joe's, which was on Ingalls. That's how I got started. Then they said, well, we're getting rid of nurse's aid. I said, well, I got to find a way to make a living. So I went to the nursing school, which is on Textile, where they built that high school, alternative high school. That's where our nursing school was. Then they put it. Sister Judith was my instructor. She went too. Then they move the school to Washtenaw Community College, the practical nursing school. If you could go there for a year teacher are in. Then Michigan dropped LPN school. If you wanted to go the route I wanted, LPN, then you'd have to go to--they still have that in Ohio. The LPN to RN program. They don't have that in Ann Arbor anymore. I'm not sure about Wayne County, they might have it.
• [00:46:19] JOYCE HUNTER: What did you like most about what you did?
• [00:46:26] CAROL ALLEN: What I liked most I guess I have a place for people that are sick. I didn't realize. When I got married, I'd never seen anybody naked besides me or anything. I never thought I would think. But I have a compassion for people that are sick, that's the best thing about what I really did, and I didn't realize it. My husband's cousin says, you've always been the mom to everybody. Anyway, I didn't realize I was such a mama. I guess I learned that from my mother. My mother went to school like I told you in her interview. The only reason she didn't finish this because she came to Michigan. She'd never was tested to be a LPN. That was a big deal in those days. It was okay when I went and they still have nurses. Most practical nurses now work in a nursing homes and extended care facilities. It's a good field. It's a good entry to get your RN to start there and then go on. A lot of people have done that.
• [00:47:38] JOYCE HUNTER: That leads right into the next question I was going to ask you. What is the biggest difference in your field of employment from the time you started until now, you started talking about that.
• [00:47:54] CAROL ALLEN: There's a gnat in here. The biggest thing difference from when I started till it is now?
• [00:48:00] JOYCE HUNTER: Right.
• [00:48:01] CAROL ALLEN: Technology. This machine I'm talking to you on, that's the biggest thing now. If I went back to where I'd have learned how to use technology to communicate. The basic human-to-human it's probably, I don't know if it's still the same last time I was in a place is different. A lot of technology. That's the difference.
• [00:48:29] JOYCE HUNTER: That's for sure, for sure. How did life change when you and/or your spouse retired and all the children left home?
• [00:48:39] CAROL ALLEN: It's great. I can't tell you. [LAUGHTER] It's like all the stuff you can do, whatever you want to do when you want to do it. That's a good feeling. I miss them and everything and I love him dearly. I loved them to come around great. Time moves too fast, to tell you the truth. If it's another 20 years I'd be happy, but hey.
• [00:49:12] JOYCE HUNTER: When thinking back on your working adult life, what important social or historical events were taking place at that time, and how did they personally affect you and your family?
• [00:49:25] CAROL ALLEN: Well, I guess, Civil Rights in my lifetime was probably the biggest thing that happened.
• [00:49:31] JOYCE HUNTER: Talk to me about that and how that impacted you.
• [00:49:35] CAROL ALLEN: Well, Ann Arbor has always been a little different than most places. I was sitting here thinking right on the corner down here from the library was the Dairy Queen. We used to walk up there to the Dairy Queen. The difference is we didn't have blatant racism just in your face when I was growing up. We didn't really know about it. I can remember when I went to Tennessee, my parents are both from Tennessee and they had separate water fountains and a whole lot of stuff that we didn't know anything about. The difference I find and I think it's coming back. It's even though people didn't necessarily care for you, people respected each other. They had boundaries. Now it's through the roof, you'd see everything now. That's what I find is different. Civil Rights bought a lot of this stuff to the attention of people. What I find when I look around Ann Arbor it says, we probably have every ethnicity that there is in Ann Arbor. And I say to myself, do these people realize that if there had never been a Civil Rights movement, they probably wouldn't even be able to be here? That's the difference I find too, Joyce. I don't think people really know the dynamics of what Civil Rights did for people.
• [00:51:23] JOYCE HUNTER: That's why I find it so great. I see it as a gift to have an opportunity to interview and talk to people. A thing can be shared now that people can listen and hear it. Tell me how it is been for you to live in this community? You probably talked about it a little bit already, but say more about that.
• [00:51:47] CAROL ALLEN: When I grew up?
• [00:51:50] JOYCE HUNTER: Yes.
• [00:51:53] CAROL ALLEN: I guess a lot of stuff we took for granted. Even in this library, I used to walk from my library. It's a whole different thing now it's crowded. It's older. It was brand new. It was more local people. Now, you see Ann Arbor has always been in transit because of the university people would come in, they get their education and they leave. But now it seems to be more so. I think people take a lot of stuff for granted. When I was growing up, I knew the different stores, I knew the people in the stores. I find now that people don't try to get to know each other and I think that the COVID made it even worse. Now they're not even trying. I think that the biggest thing missing in the world and in this country and anywhere is a lack of respect for other people. That's the biggest thing ever. But Civil Rights everybody. I see Asians, I see people from India, I see people from South America, I see Caucasian countries in Ann Arbor, that's always been Ann Arbor. Right around the corner was the UAW Hall. The first foreign man I ever met was from Afghanistan. I didn't even know where Afghanistan was and two African men. One was from Guinea, West Africa, and the other one was from Nigeria. They had a meet and greet up there. My sister and I when I was a teenager. It's always been that way. But I think now people are a little more, what's the word I want to use, full of their selves. We're in the "me, my, I" generation. If people would open up a little more to other people, they'd be surprised how much happier they would be. I got to say this, when reverend preached the sermon about family, I didn't realize how great the teachers were in Ann Arbor. I had one and thank a lot of them because a lot of them were very good to my kids and that helped him a lot. People don't realize what a big deal that is. That is a big deal, the surroundings.
• [00:54:55] JOYCE HUNTER: That's true. It was really good that you know. I also want to ask you about your experience as a student. When you coming to elementary, middle high school, did you experience any racism?
• [00:55:12] CAROL ALLEN: The only time I had open racism is when I was a little girl, I must have been about 8, 9. Second school I went to after we left Northside School was Mack. I had this friend of mine. Her name was Sally. Well, we're only little kids. We didn't know nothing about cheese, white, non-Black and it was right there on the Miller Street, I went to her house. I got to say this and I'm just being honest. Went to her house and her mother says you can't bring that nigger over here. I went home and I said to my mother, what is nigger. I didn't know what nigger was, I didn't know any of that. We'd loved each other, this little girl and I'll never forget that. I wish I could find her, we're adults now, we're grandmothers now, but I didn't have that. You didn't see blatant racism like you see now. The only other time we had racism I remember in Ann Arbor was the theaters. There were two theaters. One was on Huron and Main. The other one was at the other end of Main Street. Almost to where that gas station is up there by Edison. The Black people had to sit in the balconies. I came to Ann Arbor when I was six. I know they were born here. But a lot of people my age didn't come to this town as young as I did. So those are the only three things that I notice in Ann Arbor that I knew about. The rest of it, I didn't really have problems. When we played together at Jones School and other places, we were just kids. If they didn't like you, they didn't get in your face like people do now. So I really didn't. That's about it.
• [00:57:32] JOYCE HUNTER: So two questions about that first incident. What did your mother share with you when you went home and asked?
• [00:57:38] CAROL ALLEN: I can't remember my mother saying anything, that's terrible. I don't remember her explaining it to me. I'm sure she did, but I don't remember. That little girl and I, you know when you just hit it off with somebody. [LAUGHTER] But it's okay. Other stuff that we have baggage we carry we get from somebody else.
• [00:58:02] JOYCE HUNTER: It's true. Do you remember her name?
• [00:58:06] CAROL ALLEN: Sally.
• [00:58:08] JOYCE HUNTER: That was a pretty common name, I think.
• [00:58:11] CAROL ALLEN: Yes, it was. I remember her. We really liked each other. My brother was Ross Robertson. All of them had the name R. They went from elementary school all the way through high school. And Rush, that was it. Ross Robertson, and Rush. Robertson worked for the lumber company. Were you living here when they had their lumber company down by the Dairy Queen in that area?
• [00:58:55] JOYCE HUNTER: I actually moved to this area as an adult, so I didn't grow up here.
• [00:59:02] CAROL ALLEN: They went to high school together. They went from elementary, kindergarten all the way through. I used to take this guy a pie for Thanksgiving. When I leave my mother's house because he went to school with white guy. They closed the lumber companies. Things have evolved into Lowe's and Home Depot, that kind of thing, big conglomerations. But the lumber company at the bottom of Main Street and Fifth Avenue down in there, and my brother worked with the guy and lived with him and knew him. That was the thing about Ann Arbor different. Just like my son, my oldest son, and my son's, these kids were in the Ann Arbor paper and everybody knew my husband. Then different people communicate over electronics. But I think it's a little personal. I don't know. It's different.
• [01:00:06] JOYCE HUNTER: When you talk to your brother, had these friends, they were white, young man, friends all the way. Did they stay in contact or did they leave?
• [01:00:18] CAROL ALLEN: They stayed in contact [INAUDIBLE]. He had a contracting business on the Fourth Avenue when he died. His son was the manager. He knew all these people. He was murdered in Detroit when he was 50 years old.
• [01:00:54] JOYCE HUNTER: Let me talk about him for a minute. We often hear people talk about Fourth Ave being the Black business district. He actually had a business on Fourth Avenue.
• [01:01:05] CAROL ALLEN: Yes. I can't remember if he did contracting. He did all people. He put a deck on my house. We'd been there over 30 years, is still there. My brother was a charismatic person. If you'd meet him, he could make hit butter you up. You'd be smiling and laughing. He just knew how to get to people's inner core and he hung real tough. He got correct. I'd never forget it. He got messed up. When he got his life back together. I took him at work midnight. I worked in a nursing home. He won't come to me. It's on here on the street, a private place. He wanted to go I needed to have his good and Sacred Heart. We went to the place called Sacred Heart and they have a place up in the thumb. He stayed a month. Anyway, he got it in the rehab. I took him there. I stay up all night driving to talk me out of it. We were like glue him and I were only a year-and-a-half apart. We did everything together. I took him to the rehab. You had to stay there a month to get it together. He stayed less than a month. He's back home. He never messed with another drug, never did. Then he started rehabbing houses for people free. Then he started a business and the business was right there. You know where the old post office is--well I shouldn't say that because you said you came as adult.
• [01:03:03] JOYCE HUNTER: I do know what that post office is though.
• [01:03:06] CAROL ALLEN: His business was right there. The building that Mr. Hall owned. His sister inherited is right there on Fourth Ave, where they would have the festivals all the time. My brother's business was up on the second floor. That's where his office was in. He did business all through her.
• [01:03:28] JOYCE HUNTER: The name of his business?
• [01:03:31] CAROL ALLEN: I can't remember. I'll have to go home and look. I must have his card. I can't remember. That's terrible.
• [01:03:37] JOYCE HUNTER: No, that's okay.
• [01:03:38] CAROL ALLEN: My cousin had a contracting business.
• [01:03:43] JOYCE HUNTER: Was that on Fourth Ave as well, or where was that located?
• [01:03:45] CAROL ALLEN: My cousin's name is Roy Campbell. He had a contracting business. It's the one that got my brother into become a carpenter. Thank God that's the best thing he ever did. He had a business. He passed away about two years ago, he went to bed though.
• [01:04:04] JOYCE HUNTER: I recognized the name when you said the name.
• [01:04:07] CAROL ALLEN: Roy Campbell. He did the driveways. He did building. He lived on Kingsley off Dexter-Ann Arbor. That's where he lived. That was my mother's side, my dad's side. A lot of my family would come here from the different states and live with us. It was truly a blessing being out there. My mother's cousins have lived with us. My dad's cousins lived with us. A lot of people that I got names if you want them lived with us when they came to Ann Arbor. It was a blessing. The thing that was different choice about Ann Arbor than it is now. We as Black people didn't notice now is that people were hungry. People who had come from parts of the country where they work like animals and couldn't get ahead. But when you came here if you worked, you could get somewhere. My parents both worked my dad worked two jobs and my mother worked. They rented rooms and not just me, but you know what the joy of that was? When we came here, we couldn't find a place to stay. That's why I think my parents did it, not just for the money, and then they got to know so many different people and they had a place to live. This is before they build University townhouses and Colonial Square and Pontiac Heights. There were no places for people to live. If you didn't know somebody, and the meeting place was Ann Street. People don't know the history of that. From Main to Fourth Ave and around the corner, all of that was Black district. The first place I ever saw, Black district was not there though. When I first came in when I was a little girl. The only place Black people had barbershop and beauty shop was on Main. Across from where the Mongolian restaurant was, it used to be Kresge's. Downstairs, they had a barber and beauty shop for Black people. That was where they got their hair cut. They didn't have businesses. They did that. Then they got beauty shops on Fourth Ave. Mr. Monty had a child.
• [01:06:52] CAROL ALLEN: Her name will come to me. Mrs. Wright had a beauty shop there. Mrs. Dubois had a beauty shop there. Right next door to the library where the parking lot is, a Black lady had a beauty shop. Mrs. Patillo, she had a beauty shop next door to this place. I think that's her name. There's a lot of history about Ann Arbor and Black people that a lot of people don't know.
• [01:07:28] JOYCE HUNTER: Carol, you mentioned being in the basement of Kresge's. I think this is the first time I've heard that in an interview was important, but they talked about businesses on for that. How about shops or places in Kresge's? Was that space that someone else owned, like a white individual, and Blacks rented out?
• [01:07:51] CAROL ALLEN: It was across from Kresge's in that building that's there, it's still there. I don't know what's there. It used to be a jewelry store called Daniel's there. Downstairs they had elevator and that building had a name. I should've did search so I could tell you their proper name. But it's right across from Kresge's and it was downstairs and that was the beauty barbershop for Black people. I guess I was a little girl because I can remember that. That evolved fast and they start having a lot of ladies did hair out of their houses. Mrs. Wright had the shop on... Mrs. Patillo had a shop. Mrs. Wright, Mrs. Dubois had a shop. Mr. Monty had a shop. That's where the t-shirt place is now. Mr. Hall had that whole building there on 4th Ave and then his sister got it and I can't remember her name. She passed away about three or four years ago. Then the niece and nephews got it and they sold the building. That was Fourth Ave and Ann Street, and that little section which is Detroit Street, that used to be an island that sat right in the middle of that street. They fill those buildings on the other side on Detroit Street, right at the triangle which is no longer there. Then the other ones that are on Fourth Ave. The first meat market was Russell Calvert's brother had the meat. That place that I don't think they tore that down. They talk about DeLong's. DeLong's was one of the last Black business that opened, or in the middle or almost to the end. Calvert had a fish market, there on the Fourth Ave, Catherine, that is. He had a fish market and they moved to Kerrytown. He had the first Kerrytown market. I don't know if he sold it or what. He opened it in Kerrytown. Russell Calvert, Russell went to school with my husband. Russell is a millionaire. Don't tell him I told you.
• [01:10:43] JOYCE HUNTER: I won't.
• [01:10:45] CAROL ALLEN: He had a trucking business and down there where the Kellogg Eye Center is on Maiden where they're building those high rises, they had that business. They had laundromat, they had a pizza place, and they had a car wash.
• [01:11:12] JOYCE HUNTER: This is the Calverts?
• [01:11:13] CAROL ALLEN: The Calverts. Really good. I don't know when they stopped or what happened or any of that, but I do know that. Were you here when the Krogers was down there?
• [01:11:31] JOYCE HUNTER: Yes. I came here in my 20s. I just didn't grow up here. So I've been here [OVERLAPPING]
• [01:11:35] CAROL ALLEN: I figured that you went to school here.
• [01:11:38] JOYCE HUNTER: Yeah.
• [01:11:39] CAROL ALLEN: Am I right?
• [01:11:40] JOYCE HUNTER: I actually moved here after I got married, and that was in my 20s. Yeah.
• [01:11:47] CAROL ALLEN: Okay. Well, they had a beauty shop down there too in that down where their corporates were.
• [01:11:56] JOYCE HUNTER: I think there was Premail's shop.
• [01:11:58] CAROL ALLEN: Yes, it was. But before, they had that business right down the street here on, what is that, Liberty and Fifth Ave. There was a beauty shop, Hair & Company. He moved to Atlanta.
• [01:12:16] JOYCE HUNTER: I remember the name, Hair & Company.
• [01:12:18] CAROL ALLEN: Yeah. Then they moved it. Then I don't know if the people that took it over, they were not Black or white or whatever they were. They moved into Main Street. But the Black guys started Hair & Company right down the street around the corner.
• [01:12:40] JOYCE HUNTER: I think it was quite a proper location as well as I recall. I never went there.
• [01:12:45] CAROL ALLEN: It was excellent. He was excellent. He's the best. He was the first one besides Mrs. Patillo. Mrs. Hooks, that was her name, Hooks. She was next door. Mrs. Hooks did weaves before anybody was doing weaves. Mrs. Hooks did her own weaves. Mrs. Hooks will teach you how to do your hair, tell you not to do certain things to your hair. She was a true cosmetologist. [LAUGHTER] She did not just do your hair. She was professional. Next door, she had a little tiny shop. I must have been 16. I can remember this so well. I guess I must be old now. Because when I come down here and see the difference of things, it's shocking to me, it's just too much.
• [01:13:39] JOYCE HUNTER: Was it sad for you?
• [01:13:44] CAROL ALLEN: No, it just seems so impersonal, everything.
• [01:13:49] JOYCE HUNTER: I get you.
• [01:13:49] CAROL ALLEN: You know what I'm saying? It seems like people have been so displaced. It's like, where are we? I just don't see what I used to see. It's so funny sometimes, I got to tell you this and I don't mean any harm, people will look at you like, why are you here? [LAUGHTER] I don't get that.
• [01:14:20] JOYCE HUNTER: I've had other interviews people talk about going up and living on the Old West Side and how it's changed so whenever they're there, they still have family there and they go there, they get those looks. Why are you here, not knowing the history of the place?
• [01:14:36] CAROL ALLEN: They don't know anything. They're the ones that are new, we're not new.
• [01:14:43] JOYCE HUNTER: That's right.
• [01:14:45] CAROL ALLEN: I've been here since six years old. I could tell you stories you wouldn't even believe. They have landed, we have and we've been here.
• [01:14:56] JOYCE HUNTER: That's true. Other people we've interviewed they shared those same thoughts. You're not the first one.
• [01:15:04] CAROL ALLEN: I find a lot of them, they love Ann Arbor. They love what it represents, and they love the feeling of that. But when they come they want to change everything. This is what it's like--since I tell you I like to cook--it's like you bake a cake but you want to change the flavor and then when you change the flavor it's not like it was when I gave it to you. Do you understand where I'm coming from?
• [01:15:34] JOYCE HUNTER: I do.
• [01:15:36] CAROL ALLEN: Well, that's what I find that I don't care about even not so much. I can go back 10 years and see the difference. Ann Arbor, I used to love going to Toronto. Have you ever been to Toronto?
• [01:15:53] JOYCE HUNTER: Yeah. A number of times, it's been a few years, but I've gone a number of times.
• [01:15:57] CAROL ALLEN: When I go downtown on Main Street to me, it's like Toronto. It's just like an event. There's no eating and sitting out and it's no flavor. It is not Ann Arbor to me, and it's not just me as a Black person. I bet you will find some old-time Ann Arbor people, whatever they are, they don't really get into all of that because it's not the true Ann Arbor flavor. That's how I feel. I hate to say that.
• [01:16:36] JOYCE HUNTER: Well, that's fine. That's why we're interviewing you to gather information and you share so much in terms of what businesses we have mentioned, but you've really gotten into more detail, so I really appreciate it.
• [01:16:48] CAROL ALLEN: Here, this was where I lived. Not just so much even the Black businesses, a lot of businesses, like Goodyear's and Jacobson's, a lot of the bookstores, a lot of stuff has evolved, and I'm sure some of it has to do with the computer age, which is nothing wrong with that. I think that some things need to change and the things that last the longest are the things that are consistent or else you're going to be floating the boat forever. You know what I'm saying? It will change forever but if you have consistency, it's more. I always think about what Martin Luther King said, the content is the content is that makes it what it is. The fads even in my lifetime, have come and gone and things always going to be, but the ones that are consistent are the ones that last.
• [01:18:10] JOYCE HUNTER: It's true.
• [01:18:11] CAROL ALLEN: I wish they would be a little more consistent. Even when I come down Division, I think that is, and I don't mean any harm. We didn't have big streets in the first place. We didn't have hardly any streets. Do you know how hard it is to drive on that street? Two lanes trying to keep from hitting somebody. [LAUGHTER]. I've never seen anything like it. I don't know why they did that. I'm sure they have a reason, but I don't know why they did it.
• [01:18:45] JOYCE HUNTER: It's different. [LAUGHTER]
• [01:18:48] CAROL ALLEN: Well, there's not enough room.
• [01:18:50] JOYCE HUNTER: That's so true.
• [01:18:51] CAROL ALLEN: I'm not saying it's bad but if you're going to take the street. I'm sure people have hit people's cars, coming down that street, it's crazy.
• [01:19:04] JOYCE HUNTER: It's really tight. I come that way to go to church on Sundays.
• [01:19:09] CAROL ALLEN: Go girl. [LAUGHTER] I used to come that way, but it's so crazy now. I'm over by Golfside and I don't come anymore. I don't like driving down those streets and then the students have always had the right of way in Ann Arbor, which is the way it should be. But you're good if you can do that.
• [01:19:39] JOYCE HUNTER: Yeah, I do. I complain to myself every time I do it. I have a couple more questions for you. This has been great. When thinking back over your entire life, what are you most proud of?
• [01:19:52] CAROL ALLEN: The thing I'm most proud of since I've talked about the town I grew up in and it's been good to me, is the diversity. It's one thing that's never changed in Ann Arbor. They have all kinds of people in Ann Arbor. And if you learn how to gel with everybody you can make Ann Arbor. That's what I'm most proud of.
• [01:20:14] JOYCE HUNTER: Great. What advice would you give to the younger generation?
• [01:20:21] CAROL ALLEN: The advice I would give to the younger generation is that if you know who you are and you have a good family, you can get the rest. I'll give that to anybody. Money, fame, all of that you can get but if you know yourself, you know who you are and you love, you can get the rest.
• [01:20:49] JOYCE HUNTER: Thank you, Carol. That's our last question. I want to give you an opportunity to share anything that you haven't shared that you'd like to share before we end the recording.
• [01:21:03] CAROL ALLEN: One thing I haven't shared, I've got to give a thumbs up to my church, Bethel. Bethel is one of the things that haven't changed, that's steadfast and steady. I think after that because it grounds you when you know who you are and what you are, and where you're going and where you live.
• [01:21:30] JOYCE HUNTER: That's true. Thank you. I actually joined Bethel under Reverend Woods.
• [01:21:37] CAROL ALLEN: Did you?
• [01:21:38] JOYCE HUNTER: Exactly, yeah. [OVERLAPPING]
• [01:21:40] CAROL ALLEN: You were quiet I didn't know you. [LAUGHTER].
• [01:21:44] JOYCE HUNTER: Everybody says I'm a quiet person. I don't know. I don't see myself as quiet, but that's what people say. [LAUGHTER]
• [01:21:55] CAROL ALLEN: You don't have to say another word, then you know. [LAUGHTER]
• [01:22:02] JOYCE HUNTER: Thank you, Carol.